Mary Kenny, in her weekly column in the Saturday Independent telly bit [I know - my mother gets it, I swear! ] is sounding off about young people in Ireland today as being 'spoilt brats'. She uses the example of the current 'free fees' debate to point out a greater malaise in society; people have become lazy, expecting to get for free what others used to have to work hard for.

Regardless of your feelings on Mary Kenny's prose, [and ignoring the fact that by the end of the article she doesn't offer any solution nor opinion on whether Irish undergraduates should still have to pay their tuition fees] - she does raise one very significant point, and it is a point that sits at the heart of the free fees debate; but it also a point that, I'd argue anyway, is constantly overlooked during the current, never-ending media coverage about how Ireland has gone to the dogs, (in oh so many ways) recently.

This point being; is a place at a University every citizens right? Or is it a privilege that you should prove yourself worthy of being afforded?

Ironically, in a piece that seems to be calling for the re-introduction of fees, for some income brackets anyway, Mary Kenny quotes the famous Socialist Philosopher and Political Thinker, Karl Marx. She uses this in the context of the allocation of a state funded place at University; "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Anyway, what do others think?
Should a place at Uni be a right?
Or a privilege?

Personally, I'd start with a full makeover of the whole Leaving Cert system. Most young people start the Leaving Cert at around 15 or 16... it is presented to them like this ongoing 'project for life', something that is going to happen over four hellish weeks during a distant summer in the future.
In reality, the Leaving is only two years away when you are 16.
But, you imagine time differently when you are so young. 2 years is eons away.

I feel all resources should be directed towards designing and implementing a continual assessment system for all Secondary School students. Something along the lines of a student submitting the best three pieces of homework for any given subject, once every semester... this going to an outside body for assessment.

I dunno....
what do others think?

Cormo, a very interesting OP.

Ideally I would be all for ongoing assessment.

That is, if all things are equal, which they aren't.
Some schools struggle to provide resources.
Other schools are not worthy of being called schools.
The fee-paying schools would still be better schools if you want higher marks. The whole system needs to be overhauled.

Right or Privilege? I think education per se is a RIGHT. So the person can achieve his or her full potential. However, I can see the question being asked here... how would one know whether the student has achieved his or her full potential?

To term it a privilege is dangerous. Who would deem this person has the privilege, and others not?

It's a whole interesting area with so many avenues...

I'll wait to see how this thread develops before I can contribute more.

Excellent idea for a thread I hav'nt made my mind up as to whether it's a right or a privalege yet but I will say this; the leaving cert system is a farce. It's just a test of endurance and coping ability. If you have "issues" your screwed. The amount of pressure put on students is a disgrace. It's stupid that students are forced to take so many subjects. What's the point of a balanced education? Surely a specialised education would be better? Also,at least, part of the entrence requirement to University should be some varient of and I.Q. test similiar to the SAT tests in the U.K.IMO.And this is coming from someone who did very well for herself in the leaving cert. Rant over.

Means assesed state funded right.

A subject close to my heart at the moment, I was shocked at the expense of full university fees. My niece has ambitions for further education, but my bro said if they reintroduce more fees he wont be able to afford to send her, as simple as that.
I think that is a shame.
But realistically the state at this moment can't afford free university fees and the universities also suffer from lack of funds. I think they could allow access to all, but like the Australian system interest free loans to be paid back when your income in future employment reaches a certain level.

So university education is a privilege which should be open to all. But I think you should pay for it with a system of loans. College grads usually earn more anyway.

Unless your're an Arts grad'.lol.

But there aren't enough university places as there are people.

And surely there are people who wouldn't want, or need, a university education.

Does that indicate some sort of checks and balances system?

When I say 'privilege' I mean what is the criteria for a 'right' to a third level education?
Should there be a universal exam you can dedicate a year of full study to? Or part-time options for prepping for this exam?

Should every single candidate be interviewed for their course, as they are in the more performance driven degrees such as drama, theatre studies, music... also, in the sciences, I believe interviews happen. And the soft sciences too.. such as psychology and psychoanalysis. All mature students are interviewed.

Maybe the whole 'life path through learning' needs to be re-thought.
Perhaps there should be a whole bracket, or social strata, of jobs in society that are considered to have less of a need for maturity and crtical responsibility.
These jobs could be done by people coming out of school for about five years while they decide what they'd like to study.
THEN... you apply to university... on a competitive level - the nature of your assesment would be in context to what you were applying for... auditions, written work, lab experiments.
And then the places are funded by the state.
Just pondering this, sorry... lol

While I will agree that psychoanlysis is a "soft" science (and I use the word "science" losely) without it we wouldn't have such things as ABA or CBT or any of the other behavioural modification therapies that children with learning difficulites can be treated with (although not any more considering the Government has discontinued the funding).

I would have to argue that psychology is not "soft". The methods that are used in psychological research are exactly the same as in any other science. Without it we would have no "listening" services such as the Rape Crisis Centre, Childline, AA, or any counceling and psychotherapy services. As a point of interest all of these services owe their origins to Freud and psychoanalysis.

As to your original question...

I pay fees. All the people in my year do. We are all mature students and none of us had to attend an interview for a place on the course. Maybe we should have been interviewed because our class went from 128 people in 1st year to 62 in 4th year. However, this does not mean that another person mised out on a place. All comers were allowed onto the course. At a MA level it is different in that all applicants are interviewed to assess their suitability for a place on a course.

I think that there should be a means test of some sort even for mature students. Doing a degree while you are working fulltime is tough going and takes up most of your time for 7-8 months of the year. The fees I pay make a huge dent in my salary which means that when the summer rolls around I have to tighten the belt just to get a holiday. And I'm not talking about 3 weeks in an all-inclusive in the Carribean.

If I could have studied full time I would have because it would have reduced the amount of stress I'm under and would have allowed me to give my full attention to my chosen subject.

I reckon means testing or interest free student loans is the way to go. You pay it back when you are earning enough to facilitate the repayments. A privilege it is!

I don't know about it being a right or privilege, but it certainly benefits the state more than they realise. Ireland has a significant high-tech industry, and educating our workforce to university level and beyond is one of the strong factors that pulls multinational tech and pharaceutical companies to our country. Begin slashing university access and you just drive another nail into the coffin of our failing job market.

fetch

Coming from the time when we had to fork out a fortune for an education, I agree that todays students are spoilt.

The old adage that if you pay for something you appreciate it more, rings true for me in this discussion.

In my opinion, fees should HAVE to be paid by students. Education is obviously a good thing, however, it is not a right. If someone wants to follow and be true to themselves they have to have the hunger to achieve.

Far too many kids start nowadays and do not finish (this is my personal observation based on experience, not statistics). If fees were introduced again. it may make people think about what they actually want to do, instead of following an education course that they got the points for but are not entirely whole heartedly interested in.

I was interested in my courses in College and worked a few jobs to get the money to pay for the course. It certainly made me focus on working hard to pass the exams. Paying for anything, in my opinion, makes people self starters and appreciate what they have achieved.

Those that cannot afford the fees should obviously have financial aid. However, this should not be abused by those that CAN afford it. In my day I was refused grants and many people i knew were refused grants, others whose fathers drove the Mercedes and had plenty of money were given grants. The means test should also include property not just on Cash income. Political influence should NOT play a part in any grant system, just because someone knows a politician, should not automatically entitle them to a grant.

I think it's a right as long as the student is academically capable of finishing a university course. Entry into university under the CAO system is basically the last time that someone will be judged solely on their merit in an exam. It acts as one of the few social levellers in Ireland and the introduction of free fees was one of the best acts of any recent government.
If theres an issue with money, I think the universities should be looked at in terms of waste. It's a lot easier to do this if the government is calling the financial shots.

Irishhairy, speaking as someone who finished their degree not too long ago, I can say with authority, that for a large majority of students, you are quite clearly talking out of your hole.

fetch

yes its called a Mouth .. and My opinion is as valid as your bull!

The grant system badly needs an overhaul. its meant to sustain students during study but doesn't do so in my estimation. am open to correction of course & yes i do believe it should be assessed on cash/income & property owned etc to ensure those who need it have it,

I'm not sure why we're even having this debate about fees as the registration costs around 50% of what the old fess actually were. Prior to the introduction of "free" third level education costs for a course were say, £1,500 and you paid a nominal fee to register. In the years afterwards that nominal fee increased more than tenfold and in so doing essentially brought fees in by the back door. Now, if they bring back the fees it's only fair that the registration fee be brought back down to it's previous level and a level the represents the actual work involved in registering a student (certaintly not the lion's share of a grand).