Quick Links : Classifeds | Profiles | Forum | Register
 
View Topic
  Message Boards : General Discussion : View Topic : 182 Posts, Page 1 of 13
  HomeNewNoticesHot TopicsPollsStats Login / Register
 
NAMA WTF
 
# 1 : Thursday 6-8-2009 @ 15:24
 
 
NAMA I think this is the greatest mistake that this government has made.

I don't pretend to understand it I am hoping someone here can enlighten me

What I do understand, we the tax payers are going to spend massive sums of money I heard 90 billion in buying up toxic property in the hope that when the recovery happens these assets will inflate to their current prices, there is no way that will happen Ballbridge for example, will never be the most valuable property in the world again.

So we buy the toxic debt so the banks start lending again, why should a private business be generous with lending in a recession. I don't think they will recommence lending generously.

Why not nationalise the banks while their share price is at an all time low then we get the toxic debts anyway, but also the good assets of the bank and in a future time re float the banks and then the taxpayer would get his money back.

Does anyone understand NAMA do you think this is a mistake
Locked Topic
 
 Recent Message Board Topics
Oap V Medical Card
Word Association - To Infinity And Beyond!
Coronavirus: Are You Worried?
Whats For Dinner Tonight? Part 4.
Mothers And Children's Homes: Are You Impacted?
Are You A Top Or Bottom?
How Will Trump's Term Of Office End?
Buying Stuff On Amazon
 
Hey! If you enjoy shooting the breeze with like-minded people, check out
our Message Boards
• Advice • Coming Out
• Computers • Current Affairs
• Discussion • Food & Drink
• Going Out • Humour
• Health • Music
• Newbies • Sexual Issues
# 2 : Thursday 6-8-2009 @ 15:35
 
 
Think of it from a large scale.
Industry is afraid to invest because of the dangers of the costs.
The only group who nobody cares about if they get the shaft is the tax payers on the bottom.
Guaranteeing business safety will restore confidence to the irish market (It hasn't even been restored anywhere else yet).
If we look safe to invest in then we wont ever need to spend 90 billion to bail out toxic assets because the flow of money will be working again.

It is an incredibly dangerous move though.
Locked Topic
 
# 3 : Thursday 6-8-2009 @ 16:02
 
 
Someone said :

It is an incredibly dangerous move though.

It so is. The hole has been created by ridiculous property values that the banks lent on. The banks have to pay interest to NAMA. Their first priority is to their shareholders so when they start making money by inflating mortgages and raising chrages they'll look to pay NAMA off rather than release money to small industry and businesses. So there will be no discernable improvement in money flow. So you and me Joe Taxpayer will own massive debt, the bankers and developers who caused the problems will be unscathed and 340 more people each day will lose their jobs.

Apparently when the property bubble burst in Japan after 17 years the prices have returned to the heights they were at. And apparently there's another 30% 'ADJUSTMENT' to come in the property market. And thousands of apartments clogging the market.

So all in all NAMA is going to achieve absolutely nothing of benefit for any of us.
(rant over!)
Locked Topic
 
# 4 : Thursday 6-8-2009 @ 16:07
 
 
It is incredibly dangerous. I would not say risky you take a risk to get a gain I can't see the gain, We are about to see the pissing away of vast sums of our money I think it's naive madness.
Locked Topic
 
# 5 : Thursday 6-8-2009 @ 23:29
 
 
Someone said :
TLDR

you are going to lose your job.
Locked Topic
 
# 6 : Friday 7-8-2009 @ 08:54
 
 
So NAMA will save the banks.

The property developers will (as is happening) cue up for administration and liquidation (leaving personal garauntees as the only liability). Yet again, big business has been helped and aided.

Is this just? When the Revenue Commissioners force a man to commit suicide for the sum of 20K?

This country is so unjust!
Locked Topic
 
# 7 : Friday 7-8-2009 @ 13:04
 
 
I saw this over on http://www.gavinsblog.com/2009/08/06/what-is-wrong-with-ireland/

It is a longish blog entry but he does a neat trick. He has the following quote. (Actually the quote Gavin has on his blog is a tad longer.)

Countries are in a desperate economic situation for one simple reason—the powerful elites within them overreached in good times and took too many risks. Emerging-market governments and their private-sector allies commonly form a tight-knit—and, most of the time, genteel—oligarchy, running the country rather like a profit-seeking company in which they are the controlling shareholders. When a country like Indonesia or South Korea or Ireland grows, so do the ambitions of its captains of industry. As masters of their mini-universe, these people make some investments that clearly benefit the broader economy, but they also start making bigger and riskier bets. They reckon—correctly, in most cases—that their political connections will allow them to push onto the government any substantial problems that arise.

In Ireland, for instance, the private sector is now in serious trouble because, over the past seven years or so, it borrowed at least $130 billion from banks and investors on the assumption that the country’s property sector could support a permanent increase in consumption throughout the economy. As Ireland’s oligarchs spent this capital, acquiring other companies and embarking on ambitious investment plans that generated jobs, their importance to the political elite increased. Growing political support meant better access to lucrative contracts, tax breaks, and subsidies. And foreign investors could not have been more pleased; all other things being equal, they prefer to lend money to people who have the implicit backing of their national governments, even if that backing gives off the faint whiff of corruption.

And then when you get the picture, Gavin reveals the text he quoted is from an analysis (by Simon Johnson, in the US magazine The Atlantic ) and that the original did not refer to Ireland. Gavin replaced the word Russia with Ireland and changed some other details (e.g. the amount is different and the seven years in the mis-quote was originally five years).

And it is scary. If you didn't know he had made the change, the list of problems Russia faces is scarily like the list of problems Ireland faces. Except even Russia is not bailing out the oligarchs with an equivalent to NAMA.
Locked Topic
 
# 8 : Friday 7-8-2009 @ 13:19
 
 
Someone said :

And it is scary. If you didn't know he had made the change, the list of problems Russia faces is scarily like the list of problems Ireland faces. Except even Russia is not bailing out the oligarchs with an equivalent to NAMA.

NAMA is not bailing out the builders it will pursue liability from them but it is bailing out the bank shareholders with tax payers money. Yes we do need banks and their services. What I don't understand why not use the tax payers money and nationalise the banks that way we get the good loans and the toxic assets. I am a tax payer and I don't want the toxic assets.

So what would the disadvantages be of nationalising the banks which could be sold back to private hands later, that way a profit maybe possible but these toxic assets a loss and I think a massive one is guaranteed.
Locked Topic
 
# 9 : Friday 7-8-2009 @ 16:38
 
 
What can we do... we can spend the summer talking to all TD's and tell them that we don not support NAMA as it is structered. The government have now lost their majority with the recent Sligo TD's deciding that they will not accept the government whip. So if we don't like the idea of bailing out the greedy developers and suporting the bonus building bankers we can actually stop the bill from going through through lobbying.

But only after the March for Marriage Equality on Sunday.
Locked Topic
 
# 10 : Friday 7-8-2009 @ 16:44
 
 
Someone said :
What can we do... we can spend the summer talking to all TD's and tell them that we don not support NAMA as it is structered. The government have now lost their majority with the recent Sligo TD's deciding that they will not accept the government whip. So if we don't like the idea of bailing out the greedy developers and suporting the bonus building bankers we can actually stop the bill from going through through lobbying.

But only after the March for Marriage Equality on Sunday.

The legislation has already passed, to late to do anything. The only thing we can do now is worry about our pensions, but only after the march.
Locked Topic
 
# 11 : Friday 14-8-2009 @ 22:37
 
 
N ot A nother M ad A nswer from this shower of wasters
Locked Topic
 
# 12 : Saturday 15-8-2009 @ 09:57
 
 
Someone said :
So NAMA will save the banks.

The property developers will (as is happening) cue up for administration and liquidation (leaving personal garauntees as the only liability). Yet again, big business has been helped and aided.

Is this just? When the Revenue Commissioners force a man to commit suicide for the sum of 20K?

This country is so unjust!

i know very little about n a m a,, but i honestly believe 90 billion could be better spent in some other way on the banking system,some way that would safeguard the tax payer in the long term,..i know of a builder / developer who boasts that he got 37million from a bank 3 yrs ago and all he had to give as colatoral was a house that he reckoned was worth about 750thousand.. where was the sanse in that.. what happened the golden circle who were involved in the anglo irish scandal. the 10 who john gormley said would have to be named.. ur absolutely right is "country is unjust", we are being told to tighten our belts while the developers who got thees loans and the vast majority of them had no intention of ever paying them back.. they are still flying about in helicopters, and will be.. being totally honest i dont know what would sort this country out at this stage.. its so full of corruption and arrogance from the top down..there is no accountability once ur ge above the level of the ordinary person who is trying to go about their daily lives and not harm anybody... basic cop on and common decency have gone out the window.
Locked Topic
 
# 13 : Saturday 15-8-2009 @ 11:21
 
 
Someone said :

The legislation has already passed, to late to do anything. The only thing we can do now is worry about our pensions, but only after the march.

No, it hasn't. The Bill has been published, but it has not even been discussed by the Dáil.

EDITED TO ADD: Technically, it isn't even a Bill yet. It has not been laid before the Dáil or Seanad, which is the first stage of the legislative process. What has been published is a proposal for a Bill, for the purpose of public consultation. http://www.nama.ie/
Locked Topic
 
# 14 : Saturday 15-8-2009 @ 11:36
 
 
I’m just an Ordinary Joe willing to give everything to the poor bankers

By Fergus Finlay

Tuesday, August 11, 2009

HELLO, how are you old chap?

I thought I’d give you a ring because I know you’ve been going through a rough time. I wanted to see how I could help.

How are things at my end? Not too bad, I suppose.

We’ve had to take a load of cutbacks, of course, and a lot of our friends are suffering quite a lot.

Quite a few of them are out of work, to tell you the truth. It’s the old recession, you know. Can’t be helped.

I’ve a feeling things are a lot worse for you. You’ve suffered a real collapse as far as I can see, and my heart goes out to you.

No, no, not at all. Of course I don’t blame you for what’s happened. Sure what would be the point of that?

This is no time to be playing the blame game. I meet people all the time who say you’re responsible and the last thing we should be doing is bailing you out. But I don’t have any time for that. I just want to help if I can.

So tell me what the story is, anyway. Your share values are worthless. Right, I’d heard that on the news. And you made a massive loss last year. OK, that doesn’t sound too good. And all sorts of people owe you money, mostly builders and developers. And it looks as if they won’t ever be able to pay.

My God, that’s a lot of trouble all right. It’s going to take some doing to get you out of that mess.

And especially since there are all those begrudgers out there who think the whole thing was your own fault.

Ah no, really, they’re going around saying you knew the risk all the time, that you knew property couldn’t keep going up in value.

But like I say, that’s just begrudgery. Nothing more. And I have no time for that. Sorting the problem, that’s what we need to do.

If we can get you back on the road, I’m sure that’ll be good for all of us.

Ah, no. There’s no need to be grateful. I want to help — in fact I think it’s my duty to help.

Sure where would we be without the banks? We have to do whatever is necessary, each of us in our own way, to get you back on the road again.

And if it means a few more cutbacks and sacrifices for the rest of us, sure what of it. Colm McCarthy can look after that side of things.

Do you know him at all, Colm? Sure he’s a great fella. Follows the Dubs all the time — you’ll always find him on Hill 16 — that’s if he’s not having an oul’ pint in Doheny and Nesbitts.

You’d never think to talk to him that he had brains to burn. And the courage of a lion, as well, after recommending all those cuts for the elderly and the disabled.

He’d want to stay well out of their way — they’re nothing but trouble with all their whingeing and moaning!

Anyway, can we get back to your troubles? I know you’ve all these bad debts on your books now and they’re getting in the way of a decent operation. I was wondering what can I do to help at all? Ah, no come on. I want to help. I’ll tell you what — I owe you this much because we need the banks, after all. I’ll take on some of the debt. I’m sure I’ll be able to get something back for all that development land.

How much? Well, how much debt have you got? Oh, Jaysus. That’s a bit more than I thought.

If I got stuck with all that debt it will take me the rest of my life to pay it off — and the kids, and probably their kids too. But still. I feel I should do something. So it’s a deal. I’ll take responsibility for your debt.

Now look, to be fair, you’re going to have to take a bit of a hit too. But I think we can work something out.

What have I in mind? Well, since the collapse of the property market, everyone reckons that the best you’ll be able to do is get back about 30% of what you lent out in the first place.

I know, I know, you can’t afford that. And it wouldn’t be right. It would leave you in a really weak position. So I’ll tell you what ... I’ll give you €70 for every €100 of debt. If I can’t get that back, that’s my problem.

Now, now, now. Don’t go crying on me. There’s no need to feel guilty, no need to say thank you. Like I said at the start, all I want to do is help.

I think we all have to pitch in and do our bit — and I’m sure when I explain to the wife and the kids that it’s in the national interest that we should all take responsibility for your debt, they’ll understand.

Even though, when I look at the sums, it looks a bit as if the kids are going to have to leave school early — I’m not going to be able to afford their education as well as handling all this.

Still, the national interest, eh? What do I want in return? Sure, nothing at all. I just want you to get back to the good old days, when money was no object, when you could look at a deal and not have to worry about any risk involved. Look, I realise it could cost me everything if I have to take on responsibility for your debts. But just let me worry about that, all right?

No, you’re right, of course. I probably could demand total control of your operation in return for taking responsibility for paying off all your debts. But that would be mean, and sure, you’d be left with nothing then.

I’M NOT one of those bloody socialists who wants to nationalise everything. Sure isn’t it enough that we decide to nationalise all the bad debts — why would we want the assets too?

I’m confident that if we do it this way, one of us at least will be earning a big fat bonus in a year or two.

And sure, anyway, what would I do with all the assets of a bank? Sure I’ve no experience in banking. I’m just an ordinary Joe Soap.

The last few years have been good to me, and even if everything went wrong just because of a few lousy property deals and a few misjudged tax breaks, sure wasn’t it great while it lasted?

And after all, things were rough for most of my generation and the generation before that until the Celtic Tiger came along. At least we had a few years of the swanky cars and the posh holidays, didn’t we?

Listen, I’ve got to go. I think it’s time for my medication. But you look after yourself. And don’t you worry about all the bad debts you’ve accumulated. From now on, they’re my responsibility.

This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Tuesday, August 11, 2009

http://examiner.ie/opinion/columnists/fergus-finlay/im-just-an-or etc ...
Locked Topic
 
# 15 : Saturday 15-8-2009 @ 12:22
 
 
No the legislation has not being passed Thank god I was wrong.
Reading about the shoebox king Liam Carrol and the court case
If his assets went on a firesale or a mark to market event tomorrow you would be lucky to get 250 million for them
He has debts of 1.1 billion, that is nearly an 80% write down.
So you have to assume all property taken up by the tax payer will be an 80% write down
The famous Ballsbridge site was purchased for 369 million there is now on Earth even if it turns out to sitting on a gold mine will that site be worth that again.

So the choice seems to be we take up all the dirty over valued in most cases the undeveloped sites in the hope of bubble prices again. In the meantime the banks get the current value of those prophertys so they will lend again, they wont.

Now a Canadian bank want to take a minor stake in AIB, well so would I if I knew all its bad business practices over the last 5 years were to be wiped out. Well I say yes we wipe out all its bad business practices for ownership of the banks.

Nationalise the banks seems to me to be a logical step.
Locked Topic
 
Prev 12345678910111213Next